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The Figure

Yuezhong Chen

陈跃中

易兰ECOLAND创始人、总裁、首席设计师

美国注册景观设计师

美国城市土地研究院会员

美国环境景观协会及美国旅游发展协会会员

“大景观”概念的提出者

The Interview

I said our cities were designed by architects when the layout design is predominated by the traffic or other urban infrastructures. Landscape architect’s role is to fill the blank when everything else is done. That was the mainstream urban planning strategy so far. I think landscape architects should do urban planning.

我提出我们中国直到现在的主流也还是由建筑师做城市规划,或者由交通或其他的城市设施来主导规划布局,而景观师则是在建筑布局结束之后再进行填缝,这是我们传统的策略方式。我认为应该让景观师做规划。

There is an saying that “An accomplished disciple owes his accomplishment to his great teacher.” While you were pursuing your master’s degree at University of Massachusetts Amherst (UMass in brief), you were influenced by two great professors – Joe Volpe and Jack Ahern. In your perspective, what is the biggest influence from both of them?

俗话说名师出高徒,在美国麻省大学景观与区域规划系攻读研究生期间,您师从两位德高望重的教授约瑟夫·沃尔普(Joe Volpe)和杰克·埃亨(Jack Ahern)。想请问您,两位教授对您最大的改变是什么?

刚获得2017年度英国景观行业协会(BALI)国家景观奖的融科中心项目  | © 易兰设计

The two professors you just mentioned were both my tutors at University of Massachusetts. Another professor is Julius Fábos who has retired. They both offered me all-round education and inspired me a lot.

Yet their design strategies are completely different. Students either followed one of them or one another. Nobody was like me who liked both of their strategies. Joe Volpe is the representative of hard core traditional design approach, which is the strict and traditional design method that focuses on projects of mostly small scales. If you want your project to be honored in his class you must pay attention to the scale, proportion and materials, which are typical factors you would notice in a traditional project. As for Jack Ahern, who was the head of the department back to then, represents the new generation and a contemporary design trend to the regional planning in large scale. It was the mid of 1980s when I was at University of Massachusetts, right at the moment when contemporary landscape was sweeping in both the academic field and the landscape industry. Jack is the one of them who speak for ecological planning and landscape urbanism.

Discord did exist between the two sides. Students may choose one direction or another to follow. But for me, both treated me very well. I learnt different theories, different design methods of different scales from theboth. It is consistent with my design method from big scale to small detail that I used afterwards.

你刚才提到这两位教授,是我在马萨诸塞大学(University of Massachusetts)的时候指导过我的教授,还有一位教授的名字是朱利叶斯·法布斯(Julius Fábos),已经退休了,实际上这几位教授给我的启迪是全方位的。

 

但是这两位教授路数完全不一样,在学校里面,很多学生要不然喜欢这个教授,要不然喜欢那个教授,很少像我一样喜欢这两个路子。这两个路子是什么呢?约瑟夫·沃尔普代表了非常严格和传统的设计理念,他的重点是传统的小尺度设计,对于尺度、比例、材料这些传统概念的要求非常高,非常的严格;至于杰克·埃亨则是系主任,他代表了新生代景观设计以及大尺度规划设计,这是当代景观的设计潮流。我在马萨诸塞州立大学的时候是80年代中期,在美国,景观的当代化还在学界和业界如火如荼地推行,所以杰克代表着这样一种生态规划和景观都市主义。

这两派之间也有争斗,学生会思考我是沿着这个方向走,还是沿着那个方向走。两位教授对我都特别好,在他们身上我学到了关于不同尺度场地设计的不同流派与不同思路,这对我后来采取的从规划大景观到微小细节设计的全尺度设计手法,以及我自己的设计追求是有一定关系的。

银河SOHO景观  | © 易兰设计

望京SOHO景观  | © 易兰设计

You are a master at small-scale space creating, at the same time, you are also very good at working on projects in city scale, or regional scale. Landscape architects need to solve problems in different scales, or even trans-scales. In your projects, what is your strategy dealing with projects with different scales or trans-scales?

您非常擅长中小尺度的场地营造,也非常注重景观在城市尺度、甚至是区域尺度的作用。景观设计师常常要解决多种不同尺度下的问题。在您的作品中,您是如何做到跨尺度的?

I initiated the concept of “mega landscape architecture” when I was back to China in 2000. People didn’t understand that since I was the first one who said the word. I said our cities were designed by architects when the layout design is predominated by the traffic or other urban infrastructures. Landscape architect’s role is to fill the blank when everything else is done. That was the mainstream urban planning strategy so far. I think landscape architects should do urban planning. So, what is “mega landscape architecture” in simple words? It means landscape architects will design the layout and will arrange urban infrastructures based on the laws of the ecosystem, or landscape ecology. It addresses the sustainable development of the city and maximizes the value of urban infrastructures, while influencing the real estate and urban development.

This idea is coming directly from the modernism trend from the landscape architecture field in the United States in the recent decades. My undergraduate study was focusing on urban planning at Chongqing University, so I had backgrounds in city planning, architecture, and landscape architecture. They gave me great foundation to overcome the scale transition in projects, from macro scale to micro scales.

我在2000年回国时就开始倡导“大景观”,我是第一个提出这个理念的人。当时国内还没有人提出类似设计理念,很多人不理解。我提出我们中国直到现在的主流也还是由建筑师做城市规划,或者由交通或其他的城市设施来主导规划布局,而景观师则是在建筑布局结束之后再进行填缝,这是我们传统的策略方式。我认为应该让景观师做规划。简单地说,什么是大景观?是景观师按照生态景观的原则来布局,围绕着生态布局城市的设施,这样既强调了城市的可持续发展和城市设施的最大价值化,同时对房地产和城市发展都有很大的作用。

这个理念直接的来源是美国近几十年的一种景观当代主义,当代性的风潮。我大学在重建工学习的城市规划,所以我有城市规划、建筑学和风景园林的背景,这些对我能够从宏观到微观、全方位、全尺度的设计转换,打下一个良好的基础。

北京野鸭湖国家湿地公园  | © 易兰设计

One concept that people are arguing about but all have no idea about is the essence of contemporary landscape architecture. People think tradition equals antiquity, which is not true at all.

而景观当代的内涵是现在国内大家争吵不休的对象,其原因就是大家都搞不清楚概念,一提及传统大家就以为是古代,其实并不是。

In the recent years, Ecolandis advocating trans-disciplinary, multi-disciplinary cooperation, resource sharing, shared economy, participatory office platform and other new ideas. In cooperation with architects, planners, city designers, engineers, decision makers, developers and other disciplines, what do you think is the new role of contemporary landscape designers?

易兰在近几年的企业文化中也在提倡设计跨界、多学科合作、资源共享、共享经济、协助办公平台等新理念。在与建筑师、规划师、城市设计师、工程师、决策者、开发商等不同学科合作中,您认为当代景观设计师新的角色是什么?

Speaking of contemporary landscape architects, I want to talk about contemporaneity first. It is not a concept of time. It relates to the essence. One concept that people are arguing about but all have no idea about is the essence of contemporary landscape architecture. People think tradition equals antiquity, which is not true at all.

The essence of contemporary landscape architecture concludes three aspects. The first is to let landscape architects do urban planning. Taking traditional gardening as an example, there is little regional planning involved. Even there is, it is a passive way, not mentioning to plan something with purpose. Landscape architects were just gardening inside the wall and build themselves. Conversely, landscape architects should lead the planning process. It calls for the ability of coordination and leadership. Landscape architects shall be good at coordinating with decision makers, architects, stakeholders, and other participants ranging from water conservancy to finance, etc.

Secondly, landscape architects shall know how to utilize the idea of ecology, science and ecological technology. We do pay attention to Feng Shui and touches some principles of ecosystem in literati garden but it is not a predominant consideration nor a fundamental concept. The connotation of landscape we talk about today is ecology. Science first, humanistic deployment second. Science and ecology is the second connotation of contemporaneity.

说到当代的景观师,我可以先说说当代性,这个其实很重要,因为我认为首先当代性不是一个时间的问题,不是说今天就叫当代,十年前就不叫当代,这不是时间的问题,他与内涵的联系很重要。而景观当代的内涵是现在国内大家争吵不休的对象,其原因就是大家都搞不清楚概念,一提及传统大家就以为是古代,其实并不是。

当代风景园林的内涵我认为有三点,第一是景观师做规划,就是我所提出的“大景观”,这是当代性。就传统的造园来说,很少有在大尺度上做区域规划的,或者即便是做了也是被动的,很少主动地规划一个项目,景观师都是在小围墙里面造园。相反而言,“大景观”主张景观师应该是主导规划,这一点就牵扯到,景观师必须有协调各方的沟通能力,对决策者、对建筑师、对其他的资源比如说经济、水利各方面都能够有一个协调作用并需要领导性,这是第一点。

第二点是,生态的理念、科学的理念和生态的技术普遍的为景观师所利用,这是当代性。类似传统的景观,比方说我们的文人园林,虽然我们也讲究一些风水,也注重一些朴素的生态原则,但是并非主要考虑方向也并不是基础。今天我们谈当代风景园林它的内涵其实是很生态的,首先是以科学为基础,在此之上才有人文的调配,所以科学性和生态性是当代性第二表现。

成都三叉湖概念性总体规划设计  | © 易兰设计

The third connotation is landscape architects’ service scope change, which is not only concentrated on garden but expanded to urban space. When I was at school, no matter private or public, the meaning of landscape was confined to a single leisure garden. But when we talk about contemporary landscape architecture today, we are talking about landscape architect designing parking lots or streets, dealing with complicated urban function, not only for aesthetic consideration or for a lawn.  That’s the contemporaneity of landscape architects.

So, there are three symbols in all. First, large scale urban planning (the scale), second, ecology (design principle), third, function, shifting from garden to city (functionality). Those were the differences I noticed when I arrived in United States in 1980s. Looking back, Chinese landscape architecture industry is walking along the path to the contemporaneity. Orwe could say we are one foot stepping into it while the other foot is coming along, but still struggling.

第三个表现就是风景园林从传统的私园走向城市,进入城市空间。在我念书的时候,说到园林还只是园林,即便是公园,从私园发展到公园,但还是一个“园”。它的功能属性还是单一的城市休闲。但到了今天,当我们谈当代景观的时候,景观师可能设计一个停车场或者城市街道空间,处理很复杂的城市功能问题,而不是单一的为了美,为了休闲,为了一个绿地,所以这也是当代景观师的当代性。

所以一共有三个标志,第一是大尺度规划,第二生态性,第三公共性。这也是80年代我刚去美国看到与中国园林很明显的区别。那么今天我们回过头来看,中国风景园林的行业,正走在当代的路上,或者可以说已经一半踏进了当代,有一半可能还挣扎在发展的过程中。

People I mentioned, including Laurie Olin, Peter Walker and Martha Schwartz, they all know how to unify the knowledge and practice. They, include Dan Kiley, pushed the development of landscape architecture forward in 1950s that it finally exceeds the time.

我提到的这几个,包括Olin,Peter Walker, Martha Schwartz,他们都是知行合一,身体力行的。既有情怀,又有哲学和匠人精神。所有这群人,Dan Kiley等等,他们在五六十年代推动景观向前发展,最终使美国当代景观发展整体超越同时代其他国家。

Compared with other disciplines, such as economics, science, and politics, the social impact of landscape architecture is relatively smaller. Many people in the society do not fully understand what is landscape architecture. In your point of view, how can landscape architects have wider audiences in both social and political realms?

相比于经济、科学、政治等行业,景观设计这个行业的社会影响力相对较小。很多大众不太理解景观设计师是做什么的。在您看来,设计师怎么样才能有更广泛的社会影响力和政治影响力?

In my opinion, a first-class designer is a designer with 3 great accomplishments. First, a good cultural cultivation, which Chinese designers emphasize particularly. For example, Zhaozhen Meng, Academician of CAE, used to say that Chinese Literati Garden is mainly a representation of literacy when space is a second consideration. We call it “a landscape face with a literary soul”. Landscape show itself on the surface where literacy lies in the core of Chinese Literati Garden. If you don’t have the fundamental understanding of literacy, you cannot even understand the garden, not mentioning to design it. Hence, literacy accomplishment is important in landscape architecture.

Second, Zeal, especially as a contemporary landscape architect. By zeal I mean moral perseverance and social responsibility, etc. How can you achieve a contemporary landscape project without passion when you have to coordinate with multiple parties? Where will the motivation come from? A landscape architect who doesn’t have passion will never be an outstanding landscape architect. Unless you want to become nobody more than a good designer who is always lying on the table, passion is crucial. Then as an outstanding contemporary landscape architect, you have to know how to push the government, investors and citizens. Being able to land a project, especially the big one with coordination among multiple parties is an important ability. You may know a lot of highly talented designers or professors who are not able to do that. Less intervention to the public, less influences, hence less real projects are left. It is true that some designers have great projects. Yet his volume is too small to be heard because he never intervenes.

Third, the craftsmanship skill, which we should not ignore. Professor Joe Volpe at University of Massachusetts we just mentioned is the one who values craftsmanship very much. Landscape is not only an art but also science. Let’s put the artistic part aside momentarily and concentrate on the technical part for now. Taking drainage as an example, many people who lack fundamental knowledge draw nonsense arrows on the map to show the flow of water when they try to explain the sponge city. Let’s be realistic. Water never follows arrows. It follows contour lines, right? Seldom students, even who have a good sense of drawing, could not draw excellent contour lines these days. Why? because they do not have sufficient knowledge about technique. We need craftsman’s spirit. What is it? It is a grit that I have to make it, even suffering with loneliness. First things first is to own these three qualities, then you can become a good contemporary landscape architect, not yet a master.

在我看来作为一流的设计师需要三方面的修养。第一方面,文化修养,这一方面中国的设计师尤为注重,比如说,孟兆祯院士就曾经提出“中国的文人园”。它主要是关于文学,而不是关于空间,这叫做景面文心,中国的文人园是风景的表面,但是心是文学的,如果你没有文学的基础,别说造了,读都没办法读懂,所以文学各方面的修养非常重要。

第二点,作为当代的景观师,情怀是一个很重要的修养,这个情怀包括道德情怀,社会责任感等方面。有了情怀才能做当代的景观设计,否则怎么去协调各方,又怎么会去做这些事情呢?没有情怀,无非是趴在桌子上画图,这么做你可能可以成为一个优秀的设计师,但是你绝对没办法成为当代优秀的景观师。而作为当代优秀的景观师,你必须能够推动政府,推动投资者,推动市民,经过多方面的协调把一个项目落地,特别是大规模的项目,这是第二个很重要的修为。我们看到很多有才华的设计师或者是教授,他们有很高的潜能或者才能,但是他可能缺少社会干预能力,影响力就会减少了,这样他留下的作品就相对较少。也许有些设计师作品是很优秀,但是作品的数量不够,因为大家都不知道他或者他不去主动的干预,这是第二点。

第三点就是匠人的技术,这个我们不能忽略,我们刚才提及马萨诸塞州立大学的约瑟夫·沃尔普的教授,他就是强调匠人的技术。景观是艺术也是科学,艺术先暂且不提,技术是非常重要的。就排水而言,现在海绵城市的概念很火,然而很多人缺乏理论指出水的排向,画个箭头就去了。然而水流并不是跟着箭头走,而是跟着等高线走,现在学校里并没有几个学生能把等高线画通,就算学生的意识很好,但是他们技术不行,所以我们需要工匠的精神。什么叫工匠的精神?要甘于寂寞,没有那么多理论可讲,就是你需要把这件事做成,这个是必须的,所以这三点都有才能成为当代优秀的景观设计师,还不敢说大师。我也是有意识的沿着这条路在努力。

由GARLIC主办易兰协办的‘共享出行与城市未来’线下跨学科主题沙龙  | © GARLIC

Taking the development of contemporary American landscape architecture will help us know what is missing in China. Landscape architecture, being a subject, initiated by Fredrick Law Olmsted when it was called garden designer before. A group of people like Ian McHarg, Dan Kiley, and Peter Walker who are really brilliant, with both craftsmanship skill, philosophy consciousness, and social responsibility, pushed American landscape architecture to the contemporaneity. Landscape architecture is such a small industry, an industry that even doesn’t have registration exam in Europe, how come it got developed so well in the United States? To my understanding, it is not just related to economics, but also related to these people. Of course, GSD is a great place of origin. Although GSD raised more talented designers than we know, some of them couldn’t land their projects since they lack craftsmanship. People I mentioned, including Laurie Olin, Peter Walker and Martha Schwartz, they all know how to unify the knowledge and practice. They, include Dan Kiley, pushed the development of landscape architecture forward in 1950s that it finally exceeds the time. United States is the only country that can declare itself owning contemporary landscape architecture. Other countries are still half on their way or have no idea about it. We need people like them in China now. Our issue is even complicated, since literati garden is a good tradition that we need to study more.

我们以当代美国景观发展为例,回过头来看中国缺了什么。Landscape Architecture 这个名字是从Olmsted他们开始的,以前叫Garden Designer,中间有Ian McHarg, Dan Kiley, Peter Walker这些人,非常有才华,又兼具工匠精神,哲学意识和社会责任感,推动了美国的景观走向了当代。欧洲社会经济同样发达,为什么景观没有跟上来?很多国家连注册考试都没有,景观还是一个很普通的行业,美国的景观为什么能蓬勃发展?不只是社会经济达到了一定程度,还和这批人有关。哈佛是一个很重要的策源地,哈佛培养出了很多人,但是培养出来的很多人是有思想却缺乏工匠精神,落不了地。我提到的这几个,包括Olin,Peter Walker, Martha Schwartz,他们都是知行合一,身体力行的。既有情怀,又有哲学和匠人精神。所有这群人,Dan Kiley等等,他们在五六十年代推动景观向前发展,最终使美国当代景观发展整体超越同时代其他国家。现在我认为在世界上敢称有当代性的也就是美国,其他国家仍在追随的路上,有些国家根本搞不清楚。中国现在特别需要一批这样的人,中国的事情更复杂一些,中国还有非常优秀的传统“文人园”,怎么样对待“文人园”也是一个重要课题。

In China, landscape education has many schools and genres. In your opinion, how could we provide a better soil to raise masters, through internal change or revolution within the academic discipline? What do you want to say to the current college education, or even the training process of young design professions?

景观教育也分很多流派,您觉得怎么通过流派或者行业内部改变来提供土壤,让中国也有这些大师出现?比如对于学生的培养,或者青年设计师的培养,您有什么想说的?

It is controversial when it comes to the essence of this industry since it has different names in China. Some people call it“fengjingyuanlin” (more towards the meaning of landscape and scenery), while some people call it “jingguanjianzhu” (more towards landscape and architecture). To be honest, in terms of the meaning, I think they both tends to be alike. But we need the professionals to have a consensus, that we should be aware of that the so-called contemporaneity focuses on diversification and inclusiveness rather than divergence. Our industry is big enough to include all kinds of ideas and voices. Is it necessary to distinguish right or wrong? One says my method is the heritage from tradition, another says it is only correct to be contemporary. I would say nobody is wrong. Inclusiveness is the biggest part of contemporaneity. Only being aware of this will you understand how big this industry can be. So how to inherit literati garden? How can we teach them? How to teach them to consider it with parking lots and urban spaces? This is a problem that is difficult for us to reach a consensus now.

My point is that it can be unified as long as we reach a consensus on the concept of landscape urban planner, landscape urbanism and ecological consciousness. Then we can look back to a cultural heritage like literati garden, and make a conclusion that it is not for entry-level designers. No literary accumulation, no contemporary literati garden. It (the literati garden) is not only minority but also essence of our culture just like Peking Opera. We have to admit that not every student will be able to handle it. It would be a cliché to have pavilions and rockery being built by some quacks. Literati garden should be inherited by the most talented people who do know literature. The others take the responsibility of the mainstream design who solve contemporary problems. That’s how we unify.

目前,景观这两个字本身就有争议,因为它在中国有些人叫风景园林,有些人叫景观建筑。为什么在名字的背后有内涵的争执?在我来看,从内涵上这两个词可以说越来越相似了,但是我们需要所有的从业人员有这样一个意识,当我们谈当代景观的时候,最重要的是什么?所谓当代,最重要的不是两者之间的区别,而是多元和包容。别人和我们观点不一样,正说明我们的行业足够大,有人从事这个,有人从事那个,都在一个大行业里。为什么一定要说,你错了,我对了;一个说我这个是美国倡导的,一个说我这个是沿着传统延续下来的正宗,一个说我们要有当代性。我认为这些说法都是正确的,这行业应该足够大,所谓当代性最重要的就是多元和包容,知道了这一点就看到了这行业有多大。反过来讲,我们应该如何摆正文人园这一支的传承?我们如何去教育学校里的学生?我们如何教他们把它和城市、和城市里的停车场一起设计?是丢弃重新构建或是如何将它融入到当代景观中?这是大家现在难以达成共识的问题。

对于这一点我有自己的看法,我认为可以统一,当我们对当代性三点:景观师做规划,景观进入城市,景观师应该关心生态和环境,达成共识的时候,我们再回头看文人园这样的宝贵财富,可以这么说,这不是一般人可以设计的。没有文学基础,你玩儿当代(别玩文人园)。文人园虽然是小众,但也是顶端。它虽然不是当代的主流,但是它是代表国家的一个顶,是精华。如同京剧,虽然唱民歌的多,京剧是小众,但国粹必须得承认,这么精华的东西,不能当垃圾抛了。

必须承认,对于学生和学校教育,不是所有人都能学这个东西,文学功力不够搞这个就是乱来,搞一堆亭子假山,很俗,是不正确的。这种东西应该保护和传承,由有很高文学修养的人来延续,由最顶端的人延续,至少是和世界比肩对话的一批人。另外一批主流的我们的学生应该学习面对现实社会,是这样统一起来的。

刚刚获得2017年度英国景观行业协会(BALI)国家景观奖的北京京东商城总部项目  | © 易兰设计

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Zhangkan Zhou
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