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The Figure

Niall Kirkwood

尼尔·柯克伍德

Former Chair of Landscape Architecture Department at The Harvard University (2003-2009)

Professor of Landscape Architecture and Technology at The Harvard University

Director of Environment and Technology at Harvard University

Faculty member of the Harvard Medical School Center for Health and the Global Environment

Faculty member of the Harvard University Center for the Environment

Member of the faculty steering committee of The Harvard Global Health Institute

Associate Member of the Institute of Landscape Architects, United Kingdom (ILA)

Royal Institute of British Architects (RIBA)

哈佛大学设计学院景观设计教授
哈佛大学环境与科技中心主管
哈佛大学医学院健康与全球环境中心委员
哈佛大学环境中心委员
哈佛大学全球健康研究所教员
《环境设计与规划》主编
英国景观设计师协会资深会员
英国皇家建筑师协会资深会员

The Interview

Why wouldn’t you first briefly introduce yourself to our GARLIC audience?

很高兴您能和GARLIC分享观点,首先请您向GARLIC的观众简要介绍一下自己。

My name is Niall Kirkwood. I’m a Professor of Landscape Architecture and Technology at Harvard Design School where I have been a faculty member for 25 years.

大家好,我是尼尔·柯克伍德,是哈佛大学一名景观设计与科技教授,我已经在此任教25年了。

Architect Trevor Dannatt and landscape architect Laurie Olin are those influences Naill Kirkwood most.

建筑师特雷弗·达纳特和景观设计师劳里·欧林是对柯克伍德教授影响最深的两位前辈

As a landscape architect, who influenced you the most, and which design project transformed your design thinking in your life?

作为一名景观设计师,谁对您的影响最大?哪一件设计作品在您的一生中改变了您的设计思维?

To answer the first question: who is the individual, I would say it was probably two people. One was a professor at architecture school that I attended prior to landscape architecture. And the second was a landscape architect. The first one was Trevor Dannatt, who is a little-known architect in United Kingdom where I was trained as an architect. He was most influential in terms of design at a project in detail scale, and at a humanistic level. He was an architect influenced much by the Scandinavian architects, particularly Jacobsen and Aalto. 

特雷弗·达纳特(Trevor Dannatt) | © www.royalacademy.org

The second landscape architect was Olin, Laurie Olin, at UPenn, who you know quite well. I had the opportunity to work with him for eight, nine years in very close quarters. From him I learnt really that deep connection that filled with landscape architecture, not just as an academic subject, not just as a study in degree, but actually how one engages with it in the field, not just through design projects but actually how one lives it in terms of everyday experience. And the project probably that was mostly influential was Bryant park, which he was working on and I didn’t work on it, but also, his love particularly of Italianate gardens like the Villa Lante.

谁是对我职业生涯影响最大的人呢?我想说有两位前辈对我影响很大。一位是我在接触景观设计之前所在的建筑学院的教授,另一位是一位景观设计师。第一位是特雷弗·达纳特。我的建筑学学位是在英国取得的,而达纳特正是当地一位鲜为人知的建筑师。他在方案的细节尺度和人文关怀上对我影响很大。他还是一位受北欧建筑师,尤其是雅各布森(Arne Jacobsen)和阿尔托(Alvar Aalto),影响很多的建筑师。

第二位是宾大的劳里·欧林,你们很熟悉了。我有机会和他共事了八、九年。从他身上我学到了在景观设计学领域的各个方面中的蕴含的深切联系,意识到景观设计学不仅是一门学科,也不仅是一个学位,而是在特定的场所中,人如何融入其中,这不仅仅体现在设计项目中,更应该是人的日常行为与生活方式如何与其所身处的景观和谐互动。他对我影响最大的项目是布莱恩公园,很遗憾我并没有参与设计。另外,他对兰特庄园等意大利式花园的热爱也影响了我。

“my current research project is called Global Brown, the idea of this topic is probably one of the most wide-spread across the world in terms of a type of site that either has industrial form and agricultural use that is contaminated both in soils, ground water, air, buildings, and infrastructure, and requires remediation in order to be both healthy, safe and to be able to be reused.”

“我将我目前的研究称作“全球棕地”,“棕地” 现在可能是全球传播最广泛的概念之一了,它特指一类场地,有农业或工业用途,场地内的土壤、地下水、空气、建筑或基础设施已被污染,需要补救措施使它变得健康、安全,能够被重新使用。”

Your career has been focused on how landscape can be a medium in dealing with post-industrial site such as urban brownfield, landfills, military bases and so on. How those particular types of urban conditions draw your attention? Why those places are important?

您的一生致力于研究景观是如何处理后工业时代场地的。这些场地包括棕地、垃圾填埋场、军事基地等。这些特殊的用地属性是如何吸引您的注意的?为什么这些地方很重要?

That’s a very good question, A little bit of history. When I finished architecture school in England, my first job, ironically, was with a landscape architecture practice in Scotland, Derek Lovejoy Partners. And in 1978,79, the first project I was involved with after graduation, as a younger person, was dealing with a landfill, a post-industrial landfill, in Scotland, United Kingdom, which was a long time ago when there was no work for brownfields. It didn’t exist then. We were dealing with land that was polluted, the land that was subsiding, the land that was actually in an extremely bad shape. Using mostly engineering techniques at that time which was available, we repaired this site and actually turned it into a public park. That was in 1979, quite a long time ago, almost forty years ago. From then I actually began to develop an interest in that type of work, even though later on I wasn’t directly engaged with it. For example, with OLIN’s office, there wasn’t direct engagement with the topic of brownfields, apart from the King’s Cross project in London. 

King’s Cross in London by OLIN Partnership 欧林事务所参与设计的伦敦国王十字车站的新广场 | © www.kingscross.co.uk

 Why is it important? I think even if I just name my current research project is called Global Brown, the idea of this topic is probably one of the most wide-spread across the world in terms of a type of site that either has industrial form and agricultural use that is contaminated both in soils, ground water, air, buildings, and infrastructure, and requires remediation in order to be both healthy, safe and to be able to be reused. And it is not synonymous just with developed countries, it is also developing countries and other countries from enormous third world. In other words, the problem is large. For example, the oceans are changing the PH right now. the air pollution moves between countries, doesn’t abide by national boundaries. So, I started off talking about the idea of “China Brown”. And I made the proposition four weeks ago in Beijing, that actually China was one big brownfield. I did this for two reasons, one to provoke the audience, which is mostly made up by government officials and academic practitioners, and I expected there would be quite a lot of pushbacks. 

Niall Kirkwood’s speaking in Tsinghua University about brownfieds in 2016 | © www.chla.com.cn

But I was pleasantly surprised because five years earlier, six years earlier, at a conference in Suzhou, I gave a similar talk. I had a Chinese landscape architect coming out to me and telling me that actually there are no brownfields in China. In five or six years, the whole field has changed. People are very open to it. They are accepting it as a central part of Chinese landscape. What I was proposing through “China Brown” that the idea instead of trying to develop in a very piecemeal way, you just consider the whole country a brownfield. and then I said, “but don’t think I’m picking on China, because frankly it’s part of a larger idea that I have, which is called Global Brown that the whole earth is a brownfield.”

这个问题很好,我想说些我过去的小故事。当我结束在英国的建筑学习后,意外的是我的第一份工作是在苏格兰的Derek Lovejoy Partners事务所作一名景观设计师。1978、79年,我毕业后的第一个项目就是土地填埋处理,场地是一个位于苏格兰的后工业垃圾填埋场。那是很久以前的项目了,当时还没有关于棕地整治方面的工作,也还没有这种叫法。

需要我们处理的那片场地已经遭到污染,土壤沉降严重,整体状况十分糟糕,通过应用当时可用的一些工程技术,我们修复了那片场地并且把它变成了一个公共公园。那个项目是在1979年,几乎四十年以前了,从那时我开始对这种类型的工作感兴趣,虽然后来我并没有直接地参与过。比如欧林事务所中其实并没有直接与棕地课题相关的项目,除了伦敦的国王十字车站项目。

为什么我认为这个课题很重要呢? 我将我目前的研究称作“全球棕地”,“棕地” 现在可能是全球传播最广泛的概念之一了,它特指一类场地,有农业或工业用途,场地内的土壤、地下水、空气、建筑或基础设施已被污染,需要补救措施使它变得健康、安全,能够被重新使用。

棕地并不仅存在于发达国家,在发展中国家和其他数量可观的第三世界国家里也并不罕见。换句话说,这是个很严重的问题。比如海洋的PH值正在发生改变,被污染的空气不受国界限制地在国与国之间流动。现在我开始更多地讨论 “中国棕地”的概念,事实上,四周前在北京我提到,中国是一整片巨大的棕地。我这样主张有两个原因:第一,刺激由政府官员和学者组成的听众群体;第二,我也在期待反驳的观点。

事实上,五六年前,我在苏州作了一场类似的讲座,一位中国景观设计师从会场出来对我说:中国没有一片棕土。五、六年后,我很惊喜地发现,学界的观点发生了变化。人们对此态度很开明。他们把这个概念视作有中国景观的很重要部分。这也是我在提出这个概念时想要的态度不仅仅是把整个国家视作一片被污染的场地而已。最后我说不要认为我在挑剔中国,因为 “中国棕地”只是我 “全球棕地”大概念的其中一部分,事实上我认为全球都是一块巨大的棕地。

“And what is happening now in engineering is they are starting to look particularly at some of developing technologies say phytoremediation, which is thought of very much as a speculative, somewhat illusive type of remediation. Now that it’s actually started to be seen as a fairly formidable force and one of the tools to be used in the cleanup sites.”

“在工程领域,起初工程师们研究的一些尚处于萌芽阶段的新技术,比如植物修复,听上去可能属于不现实甚至虚幻的补救措施,现在被看作是强大的工具,可以用来清理场地。”

It is radical that your brownfield research has made a huge impact all over the world. During this long period of time, how do you see the trajectory of the design methods on remediation? And how do you forecast the future of our career in reacting to the increasingly complex challenges in landscape architecture and urban planning.

您在棕地治理方面的研究有着世界级的影响力。在很长的一段时间里您是如何看待治理方式的变化的?您认为未来的棕地治理该如何应对日益复杂的景观和城市规划挑战?

When I looked at the beginning of this work and that work actually had been started pretty much in the 30s or 40s in Europe
in a very very simple way, mostly through engineering of old mining sites and chalk sites. It was simply seen as a form of engineering. Remediation was applied to a site in different ways, either very actively or passively. And then the site was presented as where a tabula rasa. It was cleaned and something would be done with it. What I was interested in doing was melding, was tying together design, particularly landscape architecture design with their remediation process, where for example, the design itself could be seen as a type of remediation. So, for example, there could be interim or temporary uses to sites during the remediation or as part of the remediation which then might lead to the future uses that might be quite different. So that I think was where design thinking was starting to engage in the brownfields and the remediation world. And what is happening now in engineering is they are starting to look particularly at some of developing technologies say phytoremediation, which is thought of very much as a speculative, somewhat illusive type of remediation. Now that it’s actually started to be seen as a fairly formidable force and one of the tools to be used in the cleanup sites. In Tangshan this summer, I was able to do a phytoremediation installation as part of their international exposition that’s held in this year. About five million people would probably see that project.

当我回顾这项工作的起源,它始于三四十年代的欧洲,我发现这些项目大多通过对旧矿山等场地进行工程改造这种简单的工程形式。修复措施要么非常积极,要么非常消极。场地就像一片空白。手法很清楚,改造一步到位。

而我所感兴趣的是“熔融” ,是尝试设计修复,尤其是以景观设计为手段修复的过程。比如说,设计本身可以被视作某种形式的环境修复。举个例子,某场地在改造过程中可能会有暂时或过渡性的用途,这项用途和将来的用途可能是完全不一样的。我认为这时设计思维在棕地改造和环境修复领域的参与度就变高了。

而在工程领域,起初工程师们研究的一些尚处于萌芽阶段的新技术,比如植物修复,听上去可能属于不现实甚至虚幻的补救措施,现在被看作是强大的工具,可以用来清理场地。今年夏天,我有机会做一个植物修复棕地的装置,这个装置项目是国际博览会的一部分大约五百万人会看到这个项目。

Are there any typical remediation techniques that public can easily understand? For example, capping, removing, and phytoremediation on site are three typical remediation methods in engineering. What are their strengths and weakness in its cycle, cost, and benefit?

有一些浅显易懂的治理技术吗?据我所知覆盖、移除、植物修复是场地治理的三种工程技术。这些技术在时间周期、成本和收益上分别有哪些优缺点?

Again, these are from both of you, very very good questions, I mean, that itself could be a 14-week course, but I would say, in summary, that each site is unique. In other words, there is no general formula that you can bring to say that we must use this type of timing, this type of cost. You have to look at the conditions of a site and the context, particularly cultural, social, environmental and political. So, for example, there are sometimes on large sites, all of these conditions that you just mentioned are present.

Some parts, think of it, the site, as a series of clocks. Some of their clocks they are second and just going fast, some of them are hourly, some of them are monthly, some of them are yearly, some of them are decades, some of them are hundred years. I’m looking at a site that is in Lowell right now which will have remediation for 500 years. 500 years is a long time. Maybe the City of Lowell won’t exist in 500 years. Or maybe it will be different.

So, what I would suggest is that: it’s related to both the context of the place, the political, socioeconomic, and cultural, the environmental conditions. And so, for example, some parts of the site can be remediated right away, at somewhat expensive costs but in limited areas. Some parts, that’s for example, phytoremediation or natural attenuation issues can be much over longer period of time, 3 years, 5 years, 10 years, even 20 years.

Capping, I find is really a very common use, the idea of ceiling the site. But in many cases, it’s one of the kind of traditional techniques that’s used that really, I think would be problematic in a long run, because eventually the caps would break down. So, I think that some places will have phyto, capping, electrolysis, natural attenuation.

You may have what is called, there will be a cocktail of pollutants and it would be a chain, as I was using an EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) term, a treatment chain of techniques on the same site. How I view the site, the site through design is a choreography. What you are doing is you are placing time, program, use and people on the site in a choreography that you are placing out on the site in terms of how the program might move and change in the way that the remediation moves and changes.

这些对于你们来说真的是非常非常好的问题。这问题自身就可以成为一堂14周的课,但我觉得总的来说,每个场地都是独特的。换句话说,你没有办法拿出一种万能公式说我们必须采用这样的时间安排或成本结构。你必须要看场地的具体情况和它所处的大环境,尤其是在文化层面、社会层面、环境层面和政治层面。比如说,有些时候在很大的场地中,你提到过的所有这些情况都存在。

你可以把场地看成一系列的钟表。其中有些钟表指针走得很快,以秒为单位,有些以小时为单位,有些以月为单位,有些以年为单位,有些以十年,有的甚至以百年为单位。我现在有一个项目场地位于洛厄尔,在那里将会有长达500年的修复过程。500 年是一段漫长的时间。或许500年后洛厄尔市早已不复存在,或者它会发生天翻地覆的变化。

所以我的建议是: 这样的修复计划应和场地的周边,以及政治、社会、经济、文化和环境情况密切相关。比如说这个场地中的有限区域可以采用相对昂贵的方式进行立刻修复。而对于另外一些部分,采用植物修复技术或者借助自然衰减可以让治理过程跨越更长的时间:3年,5年,10年,甚至20年。

我发现很多场地会采用覆盖修复的方式,也就是把场地的污染物封闭起来。我认为在许多情况下,这种传统方式从长期来看的确会存在问题,因为覆盖层最终会被降解。所以我认为有些场所需要同时采取植物修复、覆盖修复,电解、自然衰减等方式。 你可能会遇到一个场地中有不同污染物的混合,而对应的治理方式会是一个链条。

用EPA(美国环保局)术语来说,就是同一场地内的技术处理链。而我眼中的场地,设计场地就像是编排舞蹈。你通过类似编舞的方式,把时间、功能、使用方式和人置入场地中,场地的使用方式在不停的移动和转变修复过程也随之移动与改变。

“It is not a garden. It’s basically a demonstration of how phytoremediation, that is the plants, using plants to clean up toxins both in the soil, the sediment, and the groundwater.  How they could be used not only to do this as an engineering remediation task, but actually could form the basis of design. And actually, make space, public space for people that actually had both shape, texture, color and form. And so, it’s called the ‘Phyto Garden’, and visitors can go through it and actually learn about what the plants are doing.”

“它不仅仅是个花园,而是一个展示植物修复技术的场地。利用植物来清理土壤,沉积物和地下水中的毒素。不仅将此作为一个工程去污任务,更将这样的过程作为设计的基础,并真正形成有着实际的形状,质地,颜色和形式的公共空间供人使用。所以它被称为 ‘植物修复花园’。”

This question is about the built project, could you talk about a brownfield remediation project that you familiar with? What kind of economic, cultural, and social pressure that those kinds of project faced?

您可否谈论一些有关棕地治理的实际项目?这些项目面临着怎样的经济、文化、社会压力?

Well, one is a site that is in its nascent form. It’s in Lanxi, L-A-N-X-I, a small city near Hangzhou, where we were invited by the mayor to visit. It’s a small city that is attempting to rethink and reframe itself.  It had manufacturing, mostly significant refining of metals, heavy industry, somewhat nasty. And they had a series of industrial sites with long, let’s say single story buildings, but 6 or 7 that lined up, with the machinery, still in place and some of the material on the ground. They are quite haunting, they are empty, quite beautiful in a way, but actually also dangerous and polluted.

So, the question the mayor who actually was quite young, maybe in her early 30s, very interesting, very aggressive, strong, positive politician, asked is, you know, what should be the future of these places. And the one thing we were talking to her about was the idea that yes, there are problems here. In fact, we could see it, we are actually standing in it. But also, you are having an amazing cultural resource, you have amenities here, in terms of these spaces. Now it doesn’t mean 6 of these buildings have to be maintained or preserved. But by, for example, discreet demolition of two of them, you could open up a space on the site or a whole set of new programs, and we were even thinking of educational campus could be developed.

Particularly, she was very interested in the idea of engaging both the Department of Civil Engineering, the Department of Remediation, Department of Design to actually develop remediation design as a topic and actually to use the campus. So that’s an example of something that has not happened yet but people are starting to get excited about it.  

Tangshan Brownfields Restoration by Niall Kirkwood | © www.gsd.harvard.edu

Tangshan is a little different. Tangshan, which you know is 3 hours from northeast of Beijing, suffered terribly from the 76 earthquakes. It devastated the city and then it rebuilt through industry particularly heavy manufacturing industry. So, like the Duisburg-Nord, it was such a classic engine of production, developing the steel that was needed for China’s growth and development, that also had problems, because it generated, I think, one of the top 10 air pollution in China. And it also produced what, some considered, is one of the most polluted cities in China.

And so, what they have to do is to go through a whole series of steps to not only change the image of the city but actually to kind of clean the city up.  And one of them was the 2060 EXPO, which actually renovated not just brownfields but landfills and quarries. And, what our project was doing, which was a small project on it as a demonstration. Well, I was invited by the organizers to do what they called a “garden”.

Now we all understand that “garden” as a term in landscape architecture is somewhat could possibly and nicely it was a public scale, domestic, smaller scale, intimate, very heavily focused on plants, flowers, extra.  So, I took the opportunity to develop a different type of “garden”. I developed something called “Phyto Garden”. It is not a garden. It’s basically a demonstration of how phytoremediation, that is the plants, using plants to clean up toxins both in the soil, the sediment, and the groundwater.  How they could be used not only to do this as an engineering remediation task, but actually could form the basis of design. And actually, make space, public space for people that actually had both shape, texture, color and form.

And so, it’s called the “Phyto Garden”, and visitors can go through it and actually learn about what the plants are doing. And then maybe take away those ideas and use them at other parts of Tangshan. So, there are two very different types. One is nascent, and still to be developed; and the other has happened, and possibly we might be able to see that idea developed in other places.

Phyto-remediation Garden Designed by Niall Kirkwood | © www.gsd.harvard.edu

第一个场地在兰溪,一个毗邻杭州的小城市,目前仍然呈现出发展前的雏形。我们受邀于当地市长前去参观。这座小城想要重新探索和定义自身的框架。它以前有制造业,以金属冶炼和重工业为主,都是污染比较严重的那一类。他们有一系列的工业场地,配有很长的单层厂房,七八个房子排成一行,生产机器以及一部分工业材料仍留在厂房之中。那里环境阴森,人迹罕至,某种意义上说有独特的美感,但同时也很危险,而且有严重污染。

市长很年轻,看上去30多岁,是个很有趣也很强势的政府官员。她问我们的问题是:这些地方的未来应该是什么样的?于是我们和她讨论到这样一个观念:是的,这里存在问题,我们能看到,而且实际上我们正置身于其中。但是同时这里也有着不可思议的文化资源。对于这些场所来说,你等于已经有了便利设施。当然这并不意味着六间房子全都需要维护或保留。但是比如说通过谨慎地拆除其中的两间,你可以打开场地的一个空间或发展出一系列新的功能,我们甚至在考虑开发一片具有教育作用的园区。

在讨论中,她尤其感兴趣的是让土木部门、修复部门、设计部门参与合作来真正发展出一套修复场地的设计方法,并以此作为课题,利用这个园区开展研究。这就是一个虽然事情仍未发生,但大家已开始为此感到激动的例子。

另外一个唐山的项目则略有不同。 正如大家所知,唐山离北京东北方有3小时车程。76年的唐山大地震给这座城市带来了严重影响。被地震摧毁后,唐山通过工业尤其是重型制造业的发展来进行重建。这就像北杜伊斯堡,是当地典型的生产引擎,出产着中国发展建设中必需的钢材。

这也存在着问题,因为这同时衍生出了中国十大空气污染源之一,这也使唐山成为一些人眼中的中国污染最严重的城市之一。所以他们需要的是步步为营,通过一系列手段,不仅仅是改变城市形象,更将真正净化整座城市。其中一步是2016年的世博会, 它重修的范围不止于棕地,还包括垃圾填埋场和矿坑。而我们的项目作为其中一个小的演示项目在大会上展出我受组织者邀请来建造一个他们所谓的“花园” 。

我们都知道 “花园” 作为景观建筑领域中的术语,一般指具有地域特性的小尺度私密空间,比较重视植物和花卉。所以我想借由这个机会来建一个不一样的花园。我叫它植物修复花园。它不仅仅是个花园,而是一个展示植物修复技术的场地。利用植物来清理土壤,沉积物和地下水中的毒素。不仅将此作为一个工程去污任务,更将这样的过程作为设计的基础,并真正形成有着实际的形状,质地,颜色和形式的公共空间供人使用。所以它被称为 “植物修复花园” 。

游客可以通过游赏这个花园真正了解这些植物的作用是什么,然后他们可能会借鉴这些想法并应用在唐山的其他地方。所以这两个项目是两个很不一样的类型。 一个处在初始状态,仍需要进一步规划;而另一个已经发生,并且我们很可能会看到这个想法生长蔓延到其他的区域。

You have many affiliations in different countries. You are visiting professor at Tsinghua University and Peking University, former chairmen at Harvard GSD, you are also the faculty member at Harvard Medical School Center for Health and the Global Environment, you have been the journal editor of “Environmental Design and Planning”. you are actively engaging in teaching, research, publishing and landscape consulting practice over the world. How does those different kinds of roles that help you understand the profession differently?

您在不同国家身兼要职。据我所知您是清华和北大的客座教授,哈佛大学景观系前系主任,您也是哈佛医学院国家环境与健康中心的教员,《环境设计与规划》的编委成员。您的工作遍布全球,工作内容涉及教学、研究、出版、景观顾问。请问诸多不同的身份角色给您怎样不同的看待景观设计行业的视角?

That’s an interesting question. Yes, there is, I have held and I hold still a number of positions both in China, Hongkong, Korea, Ireland and in the United States. They appear to be separate occupations, you know in other words, in terms of the publishing part, the journals, the advising could all be seen as a series of pigeon and wholes, but to me they are seamless.  

So, for example, my organization, you are watching him, you are talking to him now. I don’t have a large organization to support the organization. So, when I travel, my organization travels with me. So, I see the research and the writing influencing the practice and I see the practice influencing the writing. And all of them influence my teaching.

So, for example, when I publish a book on a topic that has been previously I have actually taught classes on that topic, usually here. And I don’t develop the material in the class, but I test the material in the class. So, for example, the Phyto book, I have been flirting with phyto for a number of years, pretty much on my own and decided to formalize it.

So, I mounted with Kate Kennan, the co-author, three seminars in three successive years, and then we tested out the material, we looked at readings, we looked at the scientific material. We didn’t develop material for the book, that we did separately. And then we were able to publish the book. That took three years.

But at the same time, I was also doing lectures and teaching about the topic and also trying to do projects. So, you can see that they all start to work together, particularly also with the brownfield work, where again I ran, but still the only brownfield course at Harvard. I started at 1997, so almost 20 years ago. And, but that has then fed into the publishing and then also into the lecturing and consulting. So, to me, they are just fairly seamless and they work like that. Ok?

这是一个有趣的问题。 是的,我在中国,香港,韩国,爱尔兰和美国曾经或正在担任很多职位。它们看上去是独立的职位,换句话说,出版、报刊编辑和咨询工作都可以被看作一系列相对独立的版块但是对于我来说,它们是紧密联系的。

比如说,我的机构就是你现在看到的并交谈的我自己本人。我没有一个庞大的机构来支持。所以当我旅行,我的机构也跟着我旅行。所以事实上,我认为我的研究和写作影响着我的实践工作,我的实践工作影响我的写作,而这些都共同影响着我的教学。

比如说当我出版一本书,其中的话题我已经在课堂上讲解过,通常是在这里(哈佛设计学院)。我没有在课堂上深化材料,但我在课堂上试验这些材料。比如说关于植物修复的书,我对植物修复这个课题的兴趣持续了一些年,基本是自己思考,然后我决定要将这些思考系统地整理出来。

所以,我和凯特·凯南( Kate Kennen)合作,也就是这本书的联名作者,连续三年举办了三次研讨会。然后我们检验资料, 查阅书籍和科学材料。我们并没有专门为这本书寻找新材料,这个是我们之前分头去做的。然后我们就可以出版这本书了,整个过程花了我们3年。

PHYTO by Niall Kirkwood and Kate Kennan | © www.gsd.harvard.edu

What is your research focus and the practice now? And what is your plan in the future? Is there any collaboration you are seeking in the future with government, community, or institutions?  

您目前的研究和实践的侧重点是什么?您对未来的计划又是什么?您在试图寻找新的和政府、社区、机构的合作形式吗?

That’s very good questions. A number of projects working on right now. In China, I’m heading up at Tsinghua University, a new research center on brownfields and that’s going to be… it doesn’t have a name yet. They want to call it Global Brown… but that’s the name of my own research project. But the idea that professor Xiaodi Zheng of Tsinghua University and myself will head up a center, based at Tsinghua University, Department of Landscape Architecture that will focus on research, teaching and outreach on brownfields and brownfields reuse. That’s one discrete piece of work.

A piece of work I’m doing at Beijing University is related to the rural and urbanization center. And there, we are looking at for example, the large amount of, let’s say urbanization, 326 new cities that we will build in the kind of urban-rural context. So that’s another piece of work. And then finally, I’m…, not finally, a couple more pieces of work I’m doing right now. I’m writing a book on the Korean landscape, which is a continuation of something I have been working for 15 years.

But the magnum opus, the big piece of work, the work that in a sense might be my last, I hope not, is the “Global Brown”. I’m gonna do book on global brown. We start to look at the brownfields across the whole world, not just North America, not just China, but the entire world. And it would be a kind of summary of case studies, of kind of … it started to break down both of the national barriers and political barriers but also looking at the topic across the entire earth.

这又是一个很好的问题,我有很多项目正在进行中。在中国,我正准备在清华大学成立并领导一个新的研究机构,专注于棕地研究。这个项目还没有名字,他们想要叫它“全球棕地” 然而这是我自己的研究项目的名称。但是基本想法是清华大学的郑晓笛教授将和我建立一个研究中心以清华大学景观建筑系为基地,致力于研究、教学和拓展棕地和棕地的再利用。这是其中一项单独的工作。

我在北京大学参与成立农村和城市化研究中心。在那里,我们关注大量的,在城乡环境下的326个准备建设的新城市的城市化进程。所以这是另一项工作。最后,我打算,其实不是最后,我还在做其他的一些工作。我正在写一本关于韩国景观的书,这将是我一项进行了15年的研究主题的一个延伸。

但是最大,最重要的一个项目,在某种程度上或许会成为我最后的一项工作,当然我并不希望如此,就是“全球棕地”。我将以“全球棕地”为题作书。我们已经开始审视全球范围内的已认证的棕地,并不仅仅限于北美或中国,而是整个世界。这本书将会是案例研究的一种总结,它会开始打破国家与国家之间的政治阻碍,而且开始从全球的角度来看待棕地问题。

The global brown is very interesting topic, can you talk a little bit about that?

“if you consider the oceans as one type of brownfield, which unites all the continents, the air, the land moving, the water moving as well as soil. You start to break down the political barriers and you start to break down, let’s say, the governmental barrier. You start to look at this as a more global problem. Maybe at the level of United Nations or European Union, rather than country by country, law by law, site by site.”

“如果你将海洋作为一种棕地类型来考虑,它连接着各大洲、空气、土地、水流和土壤。你将打破政治边界,打破政府职能部门的边界。你开始把它看待成一个全球问题。可能是联合国或者欧盟层面的问题,而不是把每一个国家,每一条法律或每一块场地的条件和情况割裂开单独去看。”

全球棕地的概念听起来非常有趣,您能再深入谈一谈吗?

Yeah. So, I mean, to me, the problem of brownfields right now is very much tied to both national countries in terms of legalization, laws, methods and approach. That’s why there is little kind of comprehension between countries, a little bit between let’s say north America and Europe. Europeans, of course, much longer in terms of the development of their work, it could be Germany and Holland and the United Kingdom. How China is starting to develop, for example right now, you know which models are is it using particularly with centralized land ownership. Obviously, the north American model is not so useful. Maybe there are examples particularly in Holland or Germany to some extent. But I’m starting now to look at other countries, 

other countries that have not really appeared in the map. For example, the Middle East, I’m looking at Israel, for example, looking at Albania, looking at Africa, looking at countries in Latin America. And the idea, for example, if you consider the oceans as one type of brownfield, which unites all the continents, the air, the land moving, the water moving as well as soil. You start to break down the political barriers and you start to break down, let’s say, the governmental barrier. You start to look at this as a more global problem. Maybe at the level of United Nations or EU (European Union), rather than country by country, law by law, site by site.

好的。 以我之见,当今棕地的问题其实是和国家的不同层面的法律法规及执行条例有紧密关系的。这就是为什么国家与国家之间或者更广泛地说北美和欧洲之间常常缺乏共识。当然对于欧洲来说,像德国、荷兰和英国之类的国家有着更长的发展历史。而中国开始建立的发展模式是需要和它们独有的集中式地权制度相结合的,显然在这方面,北美的发展模式无法提供帮助,中国可能可以在一定程度上借鉴荷兰北部或者德国的例子。

但是我现在开始把目光放在其他国家,那些这方面制度仍旧空白的国家。比如说我会去关注中东地区,关注以色列、阿尔巴尼亚,以及非洲和拉丁美洲的国家。这里面的观点是:如果你将海洋作为一种类型的棕地类型来考虑它连接着各大洲、空气、土地、水流和土壤。你将打破政治边界,打破政府职能部门的边界。你开始把它看待成一个全球问题。可能联合国或者欧盟层面的问题,而不是把每一个国家,每一条法律或每一块场地的条件和情况割裂开单独去看。

” The idea that China Brown is a way of saying that it has to be addressed at the national level. “

“中国棕地”这个概念恰恰就是一种呼吁棕地问题应该在国家的层面上解决的方式

The political boundaries in China. Like every provinces, cities and districts have their own leader, do you have some suggestions to overcome these boundaries.

您能详细谈一谈打破政治边界这一问题吗?

The whole idea of political boundaries is of course a very interesting one, and in fact, the entire political science and modern governance is based on this, thinking of, particularly drawing a boundary and breaking a boundary. But for example, if you take, let’s say, mining, mining areas in China go across all kinds of boundaries. They go from region to region, they cut a across. In many cases, brownfields and pollution, whether is soil, water or air, does not necessarily take account of political boundaries, which in many cases, are the lines drawing on the map.

And I think it’s to allow China or the central government and the primary, to think in the way that he has come out and talked about Green China. You know, this sort of a single, a clear vision for the country. The idea that China Brown is a way of saying that it has to be addressed at the national level. Yes, it can obviously go down to the various regions and sub-regions but it has to be looked at, particularly to do with how you gonna to add at the national level.

In a way that you know Kongjian Yu was trying to think of as a master plan, a landscape master plan for China. I think you have to think at a large scale. I think is also appropriate for China which has this vastness of territory. OK? Rather than looking at each particular province with its own rules, with its own regulations, is then very piecemeal. I think it’s also what landscape architecture and landscape architects will be. And it’s the place that they will insert themselves into work.

政治边界的整个想法,当然是相当有意思的。 而实际上,整个政治科学, 和现代政府都基于此。尤其是如何划分与打破一个边界。但是,比如说,我们可以就采矿业的例子来说,中国的采矿业是横跨各种边界的。采矿的工程它们穿越各个地区,甚至直接横穿边界。在很多情况下,棕地和污染,无论是土壤,水分,还是空气,都不会考虑到政治边界而停止流动,不会考虑地图上画的那根线。

我认为,对于中国政府和大众也应该考虑到这个概念,尤其是那些谈论“绿色中国”概念的人们。这是一个清晰的国家层面的愿景。“中国棕地”这个概念恰恰就是一种呼吁棕地问题应该在国家的层面上解决的方式。是的,它当然可以落实到不同地区和省区。但是它必须有国家层面的着眼点。

俞孔坚正尝试着运用总体规划,为中国制定一个总体景观规划方向。我认为需要有更宏观尺度上的视野。特别是针对于像中国这样拥有辽国疆域的国家,难道不是吗?只研究一个单独的省份或是自己的法律法规是不全面的。我认为这将是景观行业和景观设计师们的未来所在,这将是一个他们日后可以大显身手有所作为的领域。

Integrated Map of Areas to be Conserved to Promote Healthy Ecological Systems by Kongjian Yu | © www.scenariojournal.com

The GARLICer

Interview

Zhangkan Zhou
Siyang Jing

Editor

Transcription: Yumeng, Boya, Yuhan
Video: Qin Fang
Editor: Rui, Xiaoye, Yumeng, Zhangkan

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